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I am not as JSG suggests playing games but asking a simple question. I find it interesting that
nearly everyone's response was to justify their own decision in this regard rather than describe
what proof might change their mind. It seems to me that logic only takes you so far with a question
of this nature then you must take a leap of some kind or remain undecided. And the reason I started
this debate is I have never taken a leap and not really the leaping type. I can not imagine what
evidence would convince me either way so... What would change your mind? |
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It's a jacked-up question. The title uses the word "sufficient" in relation to proving or disproving
God. One who does not have sufficient proof doesn't have sufficient proof. One who does have
sufficient proof has sufficient proof. DUH. Each is going to think the other is being an idiot if
they are idiots.
Then the author of the debate convolutes the title with the explanation, tieing this sufficient
proof to observable natural phenomenon. The author is well aware that science does not prove
(according to scientific method) anything as fact. Most of us know about the "theory" of gravity.
Currently, there is no "final truth" known about the observable universe, let alone extending this
"proof" to the "not natural".
The author is playing games.
The fact is, I have sufficient proof for myself that a perfect eternal God loves me. That proof is
more than sufficient for me. It is more proof for me than the sun exists. Whether my saying the
proof is sufficient for me is sufficient for someone to consider the proof that is sufficient for me
depends on what is sufficient for that person.
Instead, let's all keep acting like babies and try to goad one another into thinking that what is
sufficient for us proves that others are simply insufficient. |
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Maybe the proof is in the pudding finschie, and that's why he made man first, simply because he
didn't want a woman looking over his shoulder....;-) The old story goes '' In the beginning The
mighty God of Jacob created all the heavens and the earth, and then rested. Next the Good Lord
created man and sat back in admiration, and then rested. Then the Good Lord created woman, and since
that day neither the Good Lord or Man has rested!''....;-) Taste the pudding and be happy with your
free will, If you get mi drift? |
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Remember when Jesus said, "If you have seen me, then you have seen the Father?"
There is already a historical notion and 'evidence' that Jesus did exist. And hey, Jesus did have a
popular name so-to-say. But there is no way a person would want to get the worst beating in history
unless he was crazy. And I (when I wasn't a believer) couldn't deny that this man had made grand
arguments and did care for people.
Could it be that God is not that much different from us?
Some people think that God is so beyond us we cannot know him or he doesn't exist. What if the
answer is so blunt that we have much more in common besides His plausible limitlessness and our
finite nature? |
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Because it is made up like the deities before that, so therefore, that's your proof. |
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We try to put God into a box and tell him that the only way we are going to believe he exists is for
him to appear in a visual form in a way that we can hypothesize, test, and evaluate the data. The
problem with this is that we can not put God into a box. He is the creator and is not subject to
his creation, rather, we are subject to him. When Jesus was asked by the Pharisee's for a sign that
he is who he said he is, he told them that only a wicked generation asks for a sign. I believe he
said this because he was performing miracles around them everyday. Yet, because of their desire to
not believe they asked him to perform a sign of their choosing. They were trying to make God their
puppet. He doesn't play that game. If that is the question for this debate then I agree, there is
not sufficient proof. But only because God will not allow it to be.
The bright side of the story is that he has given us proof of his existence. Romans 1:20 says "For
since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine
nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without
excuse." He is saying that God's creation (the universe, earth, mankind, etc...) is enough proof
that he exists. Just a quick look in the mirror and we have "sufficient" proof of a creator God.
Now, through modern scientific advancements, we are able to take a deeper look into the mirror and
see how intricate and complex the human body really is.
According to God, he has given us sufficient proof. Even to the point that we can have no excuse
for denial. |
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I think we have lots of proof and the reason we do not say it is divine is because we just do not
understand.
Jesus said we would be ever hearing but never understanding, we would be ever seeing but never
perceiving.
For our hearts have become calloused, we harldy hear with our ears and see with our eyes.
Otherwise we might see with our eyes, hear with our hears, understand with our hearts, and in
turn he would heal us.
We see all kinds of "Natural Disasters" as scientists put them, you know I understand their
knowledge but the biggest reason I have a problem taking them at face value is because they are
man.
While there are men smarter than me, and people who make excellent discoveries or theories they
will never have Gods knowledge, and because they do not I can't take what they do into account
especially when they do not give God credit.
We believe in Ghosts, in Microwaves that just disappear but we can't believe in a God because he
will not come down here and say 'I'm real".
Our eyes could never look upon the Lord anyways, everyone most go by thier own life experiences but
when you are a child that grows not in religion, but in the ways of God himself it is very hard to
disprove him.
My mother has been choked by a demon, she has been woken by God and told to pray in warfar, well
she obeyed only to find out a few hours later that both of my Aunts were in a carwreck and their car
flipped over an overpass onto the road beneath..
When the police officer was taking the report the truck driver who called it on said he could not
believe what he saw, but he saw a hand catch the car as it was going over the over pass and lay it
on the ground.
There is a reason God created us, and I'm not saying he is not all powerful, what I am saying is
this Earth belongs to Satan and he gave us the power to help him Devinely Intervein.
God is a just God he is not going to break the same laws he tells you and I to follow if this is
Satans Kingdom, then God might need help or a physical form to bring his power through which we
have seen in so many instances in the bible.
I can share a hundred stories that is enough for me to believe, like my Grandmother sitting on the
end of my bed and telling me not to suffer anymore because of her for she was in a better place.
I could say she was not bent over anymore, she did not need her oxygen she had long hair and was
more beautiful than I could ever imagine, and then scientists could say I was mourning so bad that
my mind took control and showed me what I needed to see.
Now I know our minds are not that nieve, when you see something you know you saw it, and it does
not matter who disproves it, you know the truth.
So many Christians don't even have the blessings to see such little things and I still get worried
and question, what if I die only to find I was wrong all along and still am not good enough to be
in Gods presence.
What proof do we need maybe instead of asking for proof first we need to just ask God to show us
that he still loves us, and needs our love in return.
So Finsch the answer to your question is what do you know or believe to be the truth? For whatever
it is the choice lies with you and its a choice that will follow you everywhere in life. |
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Sure there could be, there just isn't. I can think of a lot of things that would be sufficient
evidence that a god of some sort exists. That doesn't mean that I would necessarily worship said
entity, but I would certainly believe it was real. As for disproof, it's simply impossible to prove
a negative, but when there's no apparent difference between the unproven and the non-existent, why
believe at all? |
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All God has to do to prove existence is appear to the world of people and prove through power and
miracle and splendor that s/he exists. And the questions of WILL he do that or SHOULD he do that or
must we make a LEAP OF FAITH instead is beside the point because the topic simply proposes no proof
of God could ever exist. Well yes the proof could exist if God made it exist.
Skeptics who say where is this God, why doesn't s/he clarify rules or interpretations, why doesn't
s/he mediate human conflicts, why do good people suffer (and on and on) ask excellent questions
which deserve an answer and if they're not satisfied with the answer they're fully within their
right to doubt God exists. |
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I don't know what percentage of scientists, and I doubt anyone does, but the majority of scientists
are atheists. If on the other hand there was proof. We would all be a bunch of robots dictated to
by scientists. Who needed proof. Doesn't sound like the sort of life I'd like to live.
I will continue to make up my own darn mind. If my magnificent imagination and CONscientce tells me
there is proof, that is what I believe proff. |
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I strongly agree that as of right now there is no proof to disprove or prove the existence of a
divine essence. Thus, I am an agnostic.
However, I realize that over time things can change, and what seemed certain have been subject to
reconsideration after revolutionary phenomena s . Who knows what the distant future will bring us.
There could be scientific breakthroughs that directly or indirectly leads to evidence pertaining to
the support for either side.
What if the divine approached humanity, what if it proved itself? I have no reason to believe or not
believe that this could happen.
There could be millions of different ways that could possibly prove or disprove the divinity. But,
as of right now, there is no such proof. |
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10 Mar 2009 05:49
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