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Evolution Shoots Itself In The Foot
By maintaining that all of nature is reducible to a product of evolution and maintained for survival purposes, the evolutionist defeats his own theory due to the fact that it holds the mind to be nothing more than the brain in a purely naturalistic state. If this is so, all products of the brain (thoughts, ideas, and theories) are also products of evolution, continued because they have survival value. This includes the theory of evolution itself. The theory need not be true but only hold some survival value. Thus, discarding its own credibility in the process.
 davidsuggs  17 Jul 2008 01:31
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Philosopher Alvin Plantinga's argument against evolutionary naturalism goes like this:

1) If purely natural, random evolutionary processes created our cognitive faculties, then our cognitive faculties are not reliable tools for finding truth.
2) Evolutionary purposes do not have truth in mind, only adaptability anbd survivability.
3) Therefore to use our cognitive faculties to attempt to discover truth is to use them in a way contrary to their nature.
4) The evolutionist must therefore agree that any use of one's cognitive faculties to argue for the truth of evolution is misguided.

Plantinga writes: “if the general reliability of our cognitive faculties is under question, we can’t hope to answer the question whether they are reliable by pointing out that these faculties themselves deliver the belief that they are, in fact, reliable.”

That would be logically contradictory.

Put another way:

1. Naturalistic evolution caused us to develop our cognitive faculties in ways conducive to survival, not truth.
2. If naturalistic evolution is true, there is no reason to believe that our cognitive faculties are reliable.
3. If you’ve used your cognitive faculties to come to believe in evolutionary naturalism, you have a defeater for the conclusion that evolutionary naturalism is true.
4. Therefore you ought not believe that evolutionary naturalism is true.

Darwin wrote: "With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"
 
 davidsuggs  19 Jul 2008 22:08
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 My hands were not specifically evolved in order to type on a keyboard or change a light bulb but as evinced by the fact that they perform quite admirably in those capacities proves that often capabilities develop over and above their initial intention. And when you further examine the fact that discovering the truth of a situation might in many situations directly affect the survivability of an organism I think that Philosopher Alvin Plantinga's argument against evolutionary naturalism is shown quite clearly shown to be a circular application of logic that falsely defines the assumptions as the conclusion.
Put another way:
Alvin Plantinga used his own assumptions to prove his own assumptions, a common conman’s (sorry I meant to say philosopher’s) bait and switch.
by  finsch
 20 Jul 2008 00:00
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Um,...No.

I have to admit, if I value reason and truth, that all things wear down in time, and become rounder and more pliable.
(modified string theory).
All things change.
We call it "Maturity", when it applies to humans.
But Maturity is still a form of evolution: Its Evolving in time.
Changing.'Changing in nature, even in form.
But not in substance: Still the same person, different body, different mind, with age.
Evolved.
Even our souls evolve.
Even our spirit, it evolves.

But in substance? No.
And that, is why we did not come from primates, even though we are in the same genus. A different species.
Separate.
Different.
 
 Scorpion  26 Jul 2008 23:22
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 How do you know that thought process you just went through is not simply survivable and lacking in truth value?
by  davidsuggs
 29 Jul 2008 00:02
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Our cognitive faculties have become so sophisticated as to allow logical analysis and spontaneity. These two things show that we are fit to see truth, as we can have an idea and then analyze it.

As finsch pointed out, just because something has been designed for one purpose does not mean it can not perform another.
 
 sander  23 Jul 2008 15:57
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Your argument against evolution is circular and incoherent. True enough, discoveries and theories in the natural world are not inherently true as something would be if it was divinely or supernaturally inspired, however that is far saying that it is necessarily false. Further more, please remember just because you desire or even require the supernatural to exist for the moral certainty that it provides does not mean it actually does exist.
 
 finsch  19 Jul 2008 19:35
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If you say so, chump.
 
 Snipex  17 Jul 2008 15:32
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Brains enhance survival value. Development of intelligence thus does NOT shoot evolution in the foot, it's actually one more proof of evolution at work.
 
 Grenache  17 Jul 2008 14:57
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 Yes but we "discovered" evolution via our intelligence, at this stage of supposed development right? What if our evolving mind is not yet capable of discerning truth?
by  davidsuggs
 19 Jul 2008 04:54
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Nice try. But evolution isn't a "product of the brain". It's merely something we discovered.
 
 OzzieMan  17 Jul 2008 04:16
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 Then how do you know what we discovered is accurate?
by  davidsuggs
 19 Jul 2008 04:52
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